In Gotham Knights, Batman is really dead, and the Joker is nowhere to be found.

WB Montreal said that the Joker also won’t be there.

At a panel at San Diego Comic-Con on Thursday, creative director Patrick Redding confirmed that Bruce Wayne really does die at the beginning of Gotham Knights. The Joker also won’t be in WB Montreal’s upcoming loot-focused beat-em-up, but Redding left the door open for Harley Quinn to show up and break a few things.

Redding told a fan at the Q&A that Batman is “really dead.” IGN has more on this (via Eurogamer). Some people might think this is obvious since the reveal trailer for Gotham Knights shows the Dark Knight getting blown up in the first few minutes of the game. But WB’s Arkham games are known for sneaky twists and big reveals in the third act. This has led many fans to wonder if the gruff-voiced detective will show up again before the end of the game. But it turns out that wasn’t the chase.

The Joker seemed to be another mystery. Gotham Knights are about a terrorist plot by the Court of Owls, but the clown keeps showing up even after he’s been killed. But Redding once again put an end to any questions that might have been left. On the other hand, Harley Quinn is still on the table. The director told fans, “I won’t say for sure or not that Harley is in the game.” The Arkham Asylum psychiatrist turned supervillain turned enemy is also one of the main characters in Rocksteady’s Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League, which will come out next year.

Gotham Knights come out on October 25, and WB Montreal has been putting out a lot of new information and trailers. The latest one, which came out at SDCC, gives a quick look at Batgirl’s character. Barbara Gordon says, “If there’s one thing I’ve learned about Gotham City, it’s that people need symbols,” before going out into the night to knock some heads (the studio recently overhauled her backstory following some controversy).

In the trailer, Batgirl has a nightstick that can be changed into nunchucks. She also has the usual Batarang and grappling hooks. It also stays on some metal fins on her gauntlets for a moment and ends with a huge ground-pound attack. In the game, she will work with Robin, Nightwing, and Red Hood to take back control of the city, level up her skill trees, and compare loot stats. I’m not sure about that last part, but I’m excited to play another Batman game, especially one where Batgirl can be played again (she first appeared in the DLC for Arkham Knight).